This time around, we have a very special edition featuring Dr. Mark Plotkin and Brian C . First, the continuity of the offices must be seen in light of the change of institutional charges; they had lost their religious connotations and had become secular. And this is at a time when we're still hunting and gathering. But we do know that the initiates made this pilgrimage from Athens to Eleusis, drunk the potion, the kykeon, had this very visionary event-- they all talk about seeing something-- and after which they become immortal. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Please materialize. The most colorful theory of psychedelics in religion portrays the original Santa Claus as a shaman. And so I don't know what a really authentic, a really historic-looking ritual that is equal parts sacred, but also, again, medically sound, scientifically rigorous, would look like. CHARLES STANG: Well, Mr, Muraresku, you are hedging your bets here in a way that you do not necessarily hedge your bets in the book. You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. They followed Platonic (and other Greeks) philosophy. And what does this earliest history tell us about the earliest evidence for an ancient psychedelic religion? Nage ?] #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. I don't think we have found it. BRIAN MURARESKU: I wish I could answer that question. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. He co-writes that with Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann, who famously-- there it is, the three authors. Now, here's-- let's tack away from hard, scientific, archaeobotanical evidence for a moment. So now it's true that these heresy hunters show an interest in this love potion. So Plato, Pindar, Sophocles, all the way into Cicero, Marcus Aurelius, it's an important thing. So frankly, what happens during the Neolithic, we don't know, at least from a scientific vantage. That's staying within the field of time. And at some point in my narrative, I do include mention of Gobekli Tepe, for example, which is essentially twice the age of Stonehenge. All right, so now, let's follow up with Dionysus, but let's see here. I'm sure he knows this well, by this point. What the Greeks were actually saying there is that it was barley infected with ergot, which is this natural fungus that infects cereal crops. BRIAN MURARESKU: Now we're cooking with grease, Dr. Stang. That there is no hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data for spiked beer, spiked wine. And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. I was satisfied with I give Brian Muraresku an "A" for enthusiasm, but I gave his book 2 stars. They found a tiny chalice this big, dated to the second century BC. Tim Ferriss Show Podcast Notes So what have you learned about the Eleusinian mysteries in particular since Ruck took this up, and what has convinced you that Ruck's hypothesis holds water? Here's your Western Eleusis. But the point being, the religion of brewing seems to pop up at the very beginning of civilization itself, or the very beginning of monumental engineering at this world's first sanctuary. An Exploration of Religion: An Interview with Brian Muraresku There was an absence of continuity in the direction of the colony as Newport made his frequent voyages to and . BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Just imagine, I have to live with me. What was the wine in the early Eucharist? What I see is data that's been largely neglected, and I think what serves this as a discipline is just that. So thank you, all who have hung with us. She found the remains of dog sacrifice, which is super interesting. Where does Western civilization come from? There's evidence of the mysteries of Dionysus before, during, and after the life of Jesus, it's worth pointing out. The continuity theory of normal aging states that older adults will usually maintain the same activities, behaviors, relationships as they did in their earlier years of life. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. He's joining us from Uruguay, where he has wisely chosen to spend his pandemic isolation. So let's talk about the future of religion, and specifically the future of Roman Catholicism. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? And so with a revised ancient history, in place Brian tacks back to the title of our series, Psychedelics and the Future of Religion. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian And how do we-- when the pharmaceutical industry and when these retreat centers begin to open and begin to proliferate, how do we make this sacred? This book by Brian Muraresku, attempts to answer this question by delving into the history of ancient secret religions dating back thousands of years. But curiously, it's evidence for a eye ointment which is supposed to induce visions and was used as part of a liturgy in the cult of Mithras. And let's start with our earliest evidence from the Stone Age and the Bronze Age. Now, that is part of your kind of interest in democratizing mysticism, but it also, curiously, cuts out the very people who have been preserving this tradition for centuries, namely, on your own account, this sort of invisible or barely visible lineage of women. Amongst all the mystery religions, Eleusis survives. It was-- Eleusis was state-administered, a somewhat formal affair. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. So the basic point being, as far as we can tell, beer and wine are routinely mixed with things that we don't do today. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. 1,672. So how exactly is this evidence of something relevant to Christianity in Rome or southern Italy more widely? For me, that's a question, and it will yield more questions. They did not. So if Eleusis is the Fight Club of the ancient world, right, the first rule is you don't talk about it. We're going to get there very soon. And I think that that's the real question here. And so part of what it means to be a priest or a minister or a rabbi is to sit with the dying and the dead. The actual key that I found time and again in looking at this literature and the data is what seems to be happening here is the cultivation of a near-death experience. Its proponents maintain that the affable, plump old fellow associated with Christmas derives from the character of Arctic medical practitioners. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. In this hypothesis, both widely accepted and widely criticized,11 'American' was synonymous with 'North American'. I think psychedelics are just one piece of the puzzle. The Continuity Hypothesis of Dreams: A More Balanced Account Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. To some degree, I think you're looking back to southern Italy from the perspective of the supremacy of Rome, which is not the case in the first century. 8th century BC from the Tel Arad shrine. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. "The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity" I mean, I asked lots of big questions in the book, and I fully acknowledge that. Here's what we don't. But I think the broader question of what's the reception to this among explicitly religious folk and religious leaders? And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. What's the wine? With more than 35 years of experience in the field of Education dedicated to help students, teachers and administrators in both public and private institutions at school, undergraduate and graduate level. Newsweek calls him 'the world's best human guinea pig,' and The New York Times calls him 'a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk.' In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc . [texts-excerpt] penalty for cutting mangroves in floridaFREE EstimateFREE Estimate Some number of people have asked about Egypt. And what the FDA can do is make sure that they're doing it in a way that it's absolutely safe and efficacious. A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. There's a moment in the book where you are excited about some hard evidence. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. And that the proof of concept idea is that we need to-- we, meaning historians of the ancient world, need to bring all the kinds of resources to bear on this to get better evidence and an interpretive frame for making sense of it. Here is how I propose we are to proceed. And that's what I get into in detail in the book. There's John Marco Allegro claiming that there was no Jesus, and this was just one big amanita muscaria cult. We still have almost 700 with us. But it's not an ingested psychedelic. Are they rolling their eyes, or are you getting sort of secretive knowing nods of agreement? The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name And so the big hunt for me was trying to find some of those psychedelic bits. It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? 25:15 Dionysus and the "pagan continuity hypothesis" 30:54 Gnosticism and Early Christianity . We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. And how can you reasonably expect the church to recognize a psychedelic Eucharist? You know, it's an atheist using theological language to describe what happened to her. That to live on forever and ever, to live an everlasting life is not immortality. OK, Brian, I invite you to join us now. What about Jesus as a Jew? I imagine there are many more potion makers around than we typically recognize. He's been featured in Forbes, the Daily Beast, Big Think, and Vice. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. BRIAN MURARESKU: I look forward to it, Charlie. General Stanley McChrystal Mastering Risk: A User's Guide | Brought to you by Kettle & Fire high quality, tasty, and conveniently packaged bone broths; Eight Sleep. That's just everlasting. So after the whole first half of the book-- well, wait a minute, Dr. Stang. And I think it's very important to be very honest with the reader and the audience about what we know and what we don't. BRIAN MURARESKU: Good one. CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. They're mixing potions. Or maybe in palliative care. Leonardo Torres Pagan, PhD - Subject Matter Expert & Editor - LinkedIn You become one with Christ by drinking that. So to find dog sacrifice inside this Greek sanctuary alludes to this proto-witch, Hecate, the mother of Circe, who is mentioned in the same hymn to Demeter from the 8th, 7th century BC, as kind of the third of the goddesses to whom these mysteries were dedicated. CHARLES STANG: Yeah. So I'm not convinced that-- I think you're absolutely right that what this establishes is that Christians in southern Italy could have-- could have had access to the kinds of things that have been recovered from that drug farm, let's call it. The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name And even in the New Testament, you'll see wine spiked with myrrh, for example, that's served to Jesus at his crucifixion. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. It's not to say that there isn't evidence from Alexandria or Antioch. I would love to see these licensed, regulated, retreat centers be done in a way that is medically sound and scientifically rigorous. So when Hippolytus is calling out the Marcosians, and specifically women, consecrating this alternative Eucharist in their alternative proto-mass, he uses the Greek word-- and we've talked about this before-- but he uses the Greek word [SPEAKING GREEK] seven times in a row, by the way, without specifying which drugs he's referring to. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. But it was not far from a well-known colony in [INAUDIBLE] that was founded by Phocians. If beer was there that long ago, what kind of beer was it? So there's a house preserved outside of Pompeii, preserved, like so much else, under the ash of Mount Vesuvius's eruption in the year 79 of the Common Era. I took this to Greg [? I mean, that's obviously the big question, and what that means for the future of medicine and religion and society at large. And much of the evidence that you've collected is kind of the northern half of the Mediterranean world. let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. Brian launched the instant bestseller on the Joe Rogan Experience, and has now appeared on CNN, NPR, Sirius XM, Goop-- I don't even know what that is-- and The Weekly Dish with Andrew Sullivan. And so the big question is what was happening there? Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. But it just happens to show up at the right place at the right time, when the earliest Christians could have availed themselves of this kind of sacrament. Lots of Greek artifacts, lots of Greek signifiers. Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? Not because it was brand new data. Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . CHARLES STANG: Right. This is true. What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? . So you lean on the good work of Harvard's own Arthur Darby Nock, and more recently, the work of Dennis McDonald at Claremont School of Theology, to suggest that the author of the Gospel of John deliberately paints Jesus and his Eucharist in the colors of Dionysus. And we know the mysteries were there. Like in Israel. We have plays like the Bacchi from Euripides, where we can piece together some of this. But please do know that we will forward all these questions to Brian so he will know the sorts of questions his work prompts. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to. CHARLES STANG: OK. And that's a question equally for ancient historians and for contemporary seekers and/or good Catholics. Just from reading Dioscorides and reading all the different texts, the past 12 years have absolutely transformed the way I think about wine. Continuity Hypothesis - Keith E Rice's Integrated SocioPsychology Blog He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . We see lots of descriptions of this in the mystical literature with which you're very familiar. If you die before you die, you won't die when you die. "The Tim Ferriss Show" 646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. How does, in other words, how does religion sit with science? And that kind of invisible religion with no name, although brutally suppressed, managed to survive in Europe for many centuries and could potentially be revived today. I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries And he found some beer and wine-- that was a bit surprising. So don't feel like you have to go into great depth at this point. I really tried. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. I might forward the proposition that I don't think the early church fathers were the best botanists. It seems to me, though, that the intensity and the potency of the psychedelic experience is of an order of magnitude different than what I may have experienced through the Eucharist. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . In May of last year, researchers published what they believe is the first archaeochemical data for the use of psychoactive drugs in some form of early Judaism. So that's from Burkert, a very sober scholar and the dean of all scholarship on Greek religion. I don't know why it's happening now, but we're finally taking a look. We have some inscriptions. Material evidence of a very strange potion, a drug, or a [SPEAKING GREEK]. I would expect we'd have ample evidence. Even a little bit before Gobekli Tepe, there was another site unearthed relatively recently in Israel, at the Rakefet cave. I mean, so Walter Burkert was part of the reason that kept me going on. I see it as-- well, OK, I'd see it as within a minority. So that, actually, is the key to the immortality key. You won't find it in many places other than that. And I don't know if it's a genuine mystical experience or mystical mimetic or some kind of psychological breakthrough. I do the same thing in the afterword at the very end of the book, where it's lots of, here's what we know. But if the original Eucharist were psychedelic, or even if there were significant numbers of early Christians using psychedelics like sacrament, I would expect the representatives of orthodox, institutional Christianity to rail against it. Maybe part of me is skeptical, right? . #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian All rights reserved. But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! That event is already up on our website and open for registration. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. And I think it's proof of concept-- just proof of concept-- for investing serious funding, and attention into the actual search for these kinds of potions. But this clearly involved some kind of technical know-how and the ability to concoct these things that, in order to keep them safe and efficacious, would not have been very widespread, I don't think. Now, I mentioned that Brian and I had become friends. They are guaranteed an afterlife. And according to Wasson, Hofmann, and Ruck, that barley was really a code word. So we're going down parallel paths here, and I feel we're caught between FDA-approved therapeutics and RFRA-protected sacraments, RFRA, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or what becomes of these kinds of substances in any kind of legal format-- which they're not legal at the moment, some would argue. I fully expect we will find it. You might find it in a cemetery in Mexico. I appreciate this. I mean, the honest answer is not much. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. Maybe I have that wrong. Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. What is its connection to Eleusis? The continuity between pagan and Christian cult nearby the archaeological area of Naquane in Capo di Ponte. And if it's one thing Catholicism does very, very well, it's contemplative mysticism. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. Now, Mithras is another one of these mystery religions. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More Brought to you by GiveWell.org charity research and effective giving and 5-Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter.
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